Open or Closed List?

[vectorawx3]

"If you can point to a rule that says we keep our lists secret, please do. "

Ed, you know we love you and all (don't let the kicking and screaming phase which happens when people call you a Warmonger fool you) but give me a break. You think the text for the various spells and items which allow you to know what your opponent has on his characters is just there for fun, and you're supposed to know his list anyway? Come on now.

There is an easy distinction between WYSIWYG and hidden items (fanatics, assassins, magic items, etc.).

Fine. You want my list, it'll cost you at least one tick on the sports meter. For me, a guy who'll get top sports is sporting enough to play the game right. And I, for one, have nothing to hide.

[sergrum]

Except that extra lvl 2 eh?

Sergrum

[mauleed]

That works both ways Nidal. Want to try to hide your list from me? One tick on my sports meter.

And as you know, my meter isn't very forgiving, being marked only with "Full'" and "empty"

[marster]

mauleed said:

You keep using the word 'cheating' without actually referencing a rule that you say people are violating.

There's no rule that says I don't get to keep your figures when I win wither, but that's obviously wrong. Be judicious man.

If you want to ding me because I politely say before the game, "Heya... I'd rather we didn't show lists, but if you insist, here's my printout--you can keep it. No,I don't need to see yours until after the game," then that's too bad for me. I drew the short straw in the same way anyone can draw the jerk who gives null for soft scores. My mistake is that I thought this was a gentleman's game. You'd just be dinging me for spite. Unfortunately for me, I just like to play the game the way it was obviously meant to be played--forgive me. Almost no one takes away the tournament victory so for me the games are far more important, and hidden items, surprises, and not knowing your opponent's list before the game are part of the game that make it interesting.

[vectorawx3]

Alex, apples and oranges. Club game with a home-made special character. Don't forget the extra rare slot as well.

Ed, that's cool. Hey.. if anyone wants to see my list, I let them. I have no problem showing them the list that's going to smack them down something aweful. I'm not going against the rules of the tournament. I just think it's 100000% uber-lame. Like I'm going to pull out the Elven Assassin Fanatic of magical goodness to F you over or something.

I don't get this. Are you against hidden lists because:
1) the organizer made a ruling that lists will be open
2) you're scared of hidden combos which will affect your gameplay
3) you think the other guy will cheat
4) you think the other guy won't know his own rules
5) you honetly believe warhammer was meant to be played open-list

Do tell. You can choose more than one of the above, of course.

[ring87]

People do hate when I teleport my dancers behind there army for a juicy rear attack.

This in no way an attack. ED is not kidding. He wants to see your list and he does zero you.

Whatever man. It's just a game that represents warfare in some odd way. Things arn't always far in war. You want harder list fine. You want open list fine. It's not going to make a difference in the end. Because the cream always rises.

[marster]

hashutslilhelper said:

Right now we are not debating whether or not Open lists are the way that warhammer is designed to be played in the book. ... In such a context of such a house rule, the use of the word "cheating" doesn't even come into play.

Unfair house rules would be cheating, wouldn't they? Like, in my house, my armies automatically make all my leadership tests--that's a clear cheat. Similarly, if the tourney gave all heavy cavalry on both sides +1A, it would be an unfair violation of the rules of warhammer: that is, a cheat, benefiting some armies much more than others, although superficially handling all armies the same (my army gets the bonus even though I field no heavy cavalry, for example).

Likewise, we have an unfair procedure outside of the rules of warhammer (as you agree) and therefore... a cheat for those armies that benefit over those armies that suffer.

Perhaps you dispute degree. Okay. "Unfair" is an equally unwelcome pejorative for a fair tournament. And this is that--I don't imagine you dispute that notion. Lastly, I also judge those who insist on perusing lists before a battle--using such information to change how they play--as poor sportsmen.

[vectorawx3]

"Unfair house rules would be cheating, wouldn't they?"

No... not when one person or a group of people go out of their way to throw a tourney so we can all play. If we don't like it that much, we don't have to play. This isn't a GW tourney meant to generate revenue. It's an indy (much needed) put on by gamers like us. So don't speek ill of the organizers to any degree.

[khaineslilhelper]

And I call people who ding others for doing something that is clearly within the rules of the tournament poor sportsmen. So I guess we're even.
"that is, ..., benefiting some armies much more than others, although superficially handling all armies the same" Of course what you say is true, but warhammer is full of arbitrary, "unfair" rules. Your choice, as with all arbitrary things in a game, is to vote with your feet. Personally I think gunlines should be banned. I would rather pull my teeth out than play a gunline. Thats why I like comped tournies, as they tend to hold down the gunlines. Others don't like comp, so they go to vegas or baltimore, that's what makes it a democracy.

The comparison of your "house rule" with open lists is silly, although the solution to each is the same. If you feel a rule is that unfair to you, take a walk, no one is forcing you to go.

Crying unfair and calling people who play by the rules cheaters won't win you any friends. It just makes you sound like my 10 year old when I tell him to take out the trash. The world isn't fair, Neither are the original warhammer rules, nor any way that any tournament has since found to change them. Your choices are to either suck it up and play with the army you have, change your army, or stay home.



Unless of course your really an open list partisan, who's trying to make the closed list people look so stupid that every reasonable person will vote against them just to spite you.

[sergrum]

Martser- What army do you play? I'm just wondering why you feel you need to keep all your tricks a secret to win.

While secret combos do worry me at times, i feel that a big game changing suprise item is not really that tactical. So, yes i'd rather see other people's lists. Hell when im playing TK and people are asking how many incantaions i have left i make sure to tell them i can Jar it so they don't make a stupid decision

Sergrum

[ring87]

Open lists just limits variety. Why would someone take a magic item that's affect would diminished by knowing about it before hand. People say "bring what you like" and than limit your choices through "additional" rules and scenarios. It's no big deal. The rules are the same for everybody so they're fair. Just don't mark down my comp for bringing a Hail of Doom Arrow when your limiting my alternatives.

I like surprises. Adapt and overcome. I even set traps in chess. Of course really good players can see them a mile away.

[sergrum]

But in chess i know what every piece, what it does, and i can see it.

There is a difference between setting up a nice flank charge and whipping out a magic item when someone has a unit in the woods and killing their unit.

The thing is in a 5 game tournament "closed" lists start to matter less. If i played someone with a closed list and next game my club mate has to play them, ill talk to him 5 minutes before and tell him everything in it. cheating? you may think so, but nothing stops people from talking. by game 5 if your on the top tables, people know what you got, and you won't be able to depend on the opponent not knowing.

Sergrum

[mauleed]

marster said:

My mistake is that I thought this was a gentleman's game. You'd just be dinging me for spite. Unfortunately for me, I just like to play the game the way it was obviously meant to be played--forgive me.

Ridiculous.

You said if someone asked for your list, they're a cheater.

You then admitted that cheating is breaking rules.

I asked you to produce the rule being broken, and you can not.

That bologna and being a gentleman are mutually exclusive.

If you want to ding someone because they won't play the game the way you want to play it, fine, say so. Don't BS anyone with saying the rules require it be played your way without producing said rules.

And notice, I haven't said the rules (except for the rules of this tournament) require it be played my way either. And I haven't called anyone a cheater. I simply said I'd ding anyone that didn't hand me a list before the game, because I think it's unsporting not to. Thankfully, most tournaments require it, so it's not an issue.

I haven't even played you and I'm questioning your sportsmanship.

[mauleed]

vectorawx3 said:

I don't get this. Are you against hidden lists because:
1) the organizer made a ruling that lists will be open
2) you're scared of hidden combos which will affect your gameplay
3) you think the other guy will cheat
4) you think the other guy won't know his own rules
5) you honetly believe warhammer was meant to be played open-list

None of the above. I think that the results of inevitable mistakes are more damaging than the small improvement in gameplay that closed lists might create.

Are you for auto-massacres if someone makes a mistake on their list? If you thought you bought 31 gobbos, put 31 on the table, and it turned out you only bought 30, are you willing to take an auto-massacre for your mistake, even if the gobbo unit in question never got in a single combat ?

[vectorawx3]

Ed, if I put down 31 gobbos which never did anything (better yet, say they fled off the board, top of turn one, from a burning head), then we played a game in which I massacred you, then we caught the mistake, and I offered you the massacre, would you take it?